From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 8 15:16:26 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:16:26 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Ni Komensu! Message-ID: <0C90E8AA-F32D-11D6-A4FF-00039373299C@arrl.net> --Apple-Mail-38-479327922 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Miko: 1003EST 2002.11.08 Fantasia, Miko! Mirinda! Ni komensu. Sed, nun, mi devu labori sur mia laboro de lernejo! Mi pasigis = la=20 tuta nokto sendas mesa=C4=9Doj al homoj pri =C4=89i-tie projekton! Nun, ni vidas kiel =C4=89i-tie listo laboras... =C4=9Cis, --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= --Apple-Mail-38-479327922 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=UTF-8 Miko: 1003EST 2002.11.08 Fantasia, Miko! Mirinda! Ni komensu. Sed, nun, mi devu labori sur mia laboro de lernejo! Mi pasigis = la tuta nokto sendas mesa=C4=9Doj al homoj pri =C4=89i-tie projekton! Nun, ni vidas kiel =C4=89i-tie listo laboras... =C4=9Cis, --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 <. Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: < Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= --Apple-Mail-38-479327922-- From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 8 19:15:10 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:15:10 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Testo Message-ID: <1036782910.3dcc0d3eb7fe5@webmail.itasca.net> [Ĉi-tio ŝajnu familiara...] Ĉi-tio estas teston de Krizdisaŭdiga Sistemo. Ĉi-tio estas sole teston. Ĉi-tio estis teston de Krizdisaŭdiga Sistemo. La Disaŭdigistoj en via areo, ke kunlaboras volonte kun Federalaj, Stataj, kaj Lokaj aŭtoritatuloj, inventis ĉe-tion teston ke ili eblus informi en la okazo de krizo. Se ĉi-tio estus krizo reala, ni informus vin kie agordi por novaĵo kaj instruoj. Tiel finaranĝas ĉi-tion teston de Krizdisaŭdiga Sistemo. -- Michael Scott Shappe Addicting the Unsuspecting to the Internet since 1987 Visit Radio Free Tomorrow at ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 8 19:37:34 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:34 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Testo In-Reply-To: <1036782910.3dcc0d3eb7fe5@webmail.itasca.net> Message-ID: <878F395E-F351-11D6-A4FF-00039373299C@arrl.net> Miko: 1436EST 2002.11.08 On Friday, Nov 8, 2002, at 14:15 America/New_York, Michael Scott Shappe=20= wrote: > [=C4=88i-tio =C5=9Dajnu familiara...] > > =C4=88i-tio estas teston de Krizdisa=C5=ADdiga Sistemo. > > =C4=88i-tio estas sole teston. Estas perfekta! --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 8 19:55:17 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:55:17 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Testo In-Reply-To: <878F395E-F351-11D6-A4FF-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <878F395E-F351-11D6-A4FF-00039373299C@arrl.net> Message-ID: <1036785316.3dcc16a500b2c@webmail.itasca.net> Ĝoja mi estas ke *io* estas perfekta en mia vivo, hodiaŭ. Miko, kiu ekvojaĝos Ĉikagon en la matena <> vagonaro. > Miko: 1436EST 2002.11.08 > > On Friday, Nov 8, 2002, at 14:15 America/New_York, Michael Scott Shappe > wrote: > > > [Ĉi-tio ŝajnu familiara...] > > > > Ĉi-tio estas teston de Krizdisaŭdiga Sistemo. > > > > Ĉi-tio estas sole teston. > > Estas perfekta! > --- > Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE > Estro de la antaŭ-pramo Espero > Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . > Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj > TTT: > Faksilo: 413-460-6304 > «USŜ Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno» > > _______________________________________________ > USS-Espero mailing list > USS-Espero@mailman.itasca.net > http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero > > -- Michael Scott Shappe Addicting the Unsuspecting to the Internet since 1987 Visit Radio Free Tomorrow at ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 9 22:05:01 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:05:01 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] (no subject) Message-ID: <4B1FFC22-F42F-11D6-B904-00039373299C@arrl.net> --Apple-Mail-4-590243035 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Amikoj: 1610EST 2002.11.09 Mi sendas =C4=89i-tio mesa=C4=9Do al malpli homoj kiu esprimis = intereso pri la=20 pramo Espero, a=C5=AD kiu mi opinias eble estas interesita. Ni komencis la retpo=C5=9Dta-listo por la Espero. Ne =C4=9Denerala= anonco estas=20 sendita, ankora=C5=AD. Tamen, mi sentas ke ni povas komenci diskuti niaj=20= planoj por la =C5=9Dipo. La homoj kiu povas paroli Esperanton, parolu =C4=9Din, mi petas, = kun anglaj=20 tradukoj poste la Esperanto. =C4=88iuj komprenos se ni faras tion. Vi povas subskribi al la listo =C4=89e <=20 http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero>. Jen, ni iru! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Friends: 1610EST 2002.11.09 I am sending this message to a few people who expressed about = the=20 Shuttle Espero, or who I thought might be interested. We started the net-list for the Espero. No general announcement = has=20 been sent, yet. However, I feel that we can start to discuss our plans=20= for the ship. The people who can speak Esperanto, speak it, please, with = English=20 translations after the Esperanto. All will understand if we do that. You can subscribe to the list at <=20 http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero>. Here we go! --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= --Apple-Mail-4-590243035 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=UTF-8 Amikoj: 1610EST 2002.11.09 Mi sendas =C4=89i-tio mesa=C4=9Do al malpli homoj kiu esprimis = intereso pri la pramo Espero, a=C5=AD kiu mi opinias eble estas interesita. Ni komencis la retpo=C5=9Dta-listo por la Espero. Ne =C4=9Denerala= anonco estas sendita, ankora=C5=AD. Tamen, mi sentas ke ni povas komenci diskuti niaj planoj por la =C5=9Dipo. La homoj kiu povas paroli Esperanton, parolu =C4=9Din, mi petas, = kun anglaj tradukoj poste la Esperanto. =C4=88iuj komprenos se ni faras = tion. Vi povas subskribi al la listo =C4=89e << http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero>. Jen, ni iru! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Friends: 1610EST 2002.11.09 I am sending this message to a few people who expressed about = the Shuttle Espero, or who I thought might be interested. We started the net-list for the Espero. No general announcement = has been sent, yet. However, I feel that we can start to discuss our plans for the ship. The people who can speak Esperanto, speak it, please, with = English translations after the Esperanto. All will understand if we do that. You can subscribe to the list at << http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero>. Here we go! --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 <. Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: < Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= --Apple-Mail-4-590243035-- From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sun Nov 10 18:58:37 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (J.C. Cohen) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:58:37 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] For those of us... Message-ID: who don't actually write Esperanto, what are some good places to start? Especially a dictionary and grammatical guide. -- -- J.C. Cohen Email: jccohen@14850.com Quote: "I still find each day too short for all of the thoughts I want to think, all of the walks I want to take, all of the books I want to read, and all of the friends I want to see." -----John Burroughs ---------------------------------------- From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sun Nov 10 20:12:35 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:12:35 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] For those of us... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021110201234.GA6045@hundred-acre-wood.com> > who don't actually write Esperanto, what are some good places to start? > Especially a dictionary and grammatical guide. At some point when I have a little time (not necessarily post-Chicago, since there will undoubtedly be some time during the week when my presence is not strictly needed) I'll post a set of links I consider useful (ie the ones I actually use when translating my thoughts for posting to this and the old eo-akordo) -- a subset of the massive collections found at Esperanto Access and other such portals. In the meantime, here are the links to the portals themselves: Esperanto.net Esperanto.org Esperanto Access In the Esperanto Access portal, any English language entry by Don HARLOW (also the maintainer of the portal) is a good place to start on the grammar. In particular: The Sixteen Rules Word Building Correlatives Unfortunately, the Language page on Esperanto Access have not been updated in a while, and not all of the links work. For dictionaries, online I find that Travlang's English->Esperanto and Esperanto->English search engine is quite adequate, even if the popads get annoying (use a popad suppressing browser if at all possible) I also discovered a Windows program called 'La Votaro' which has been making me happy because it's a hell of a lot faster than the Travlang website. More later, /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 11 06:29:17 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (J.C. Cohen) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:29:17 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: <20021110201234.GA6045@hundred-acre-wood.com> References: <20021110201234.GA6045@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: Pardonas la rompita kaj pidgina Esperanto, estas la rezulto de dudek minutoj studis la situo de dek ses reguloj kaj tri horoj kun ke kaj vortaro de Esperanto kaj Angla Lingvo. C^u tio c^i evoli en grupo de STELOFLOTON, ni koni koncerne la grupo? Estas iu aj^i establos? Rikardo KINNE estas oficiro komandata, estas alia komandata pozicoj enspacas? Ni konas kio estos la komondata pozicoj? Kio estos fikcia erao la s^ipo? Kio estos tipo la s^ipo? Kio estos la misio en la fikco? Ni deziri interreto babilado c^ambro en Flotobabilado? Ni havos komputero situo? Estas fue petas tio c^i pensoj? G^is kaj kromse Marko ANBINDER alig^is la listo, mi estas probable la persono kun plej sperto navigas la kotkovrita STELOFLOTO akvoj. Mi ne deziras komandata pozico en la grupo mi faros kio kapablas helpi kun la STELOFLOTO angulo de aj^oj. Mi uzus diferenca termino ol "visiton membroj" por membroj de SETELOFLOTO ne uzado Espero kiel sia primara grupo. Mi nur ne plac^as g^i implicas al mi sole havi interson milda pri la grupo. Estas sole semantiko. Eble "filiifi" uzus por ne mebroj de STELOFLOTO kaj "kunigo" uzus por membroj kun estas primara membroj de diferenca grupo. Korecti mia Esperanto en privata - pos^to de komputero al jccohen@14850.com Sow privata al Rikardo - Allyson DYAR havi intereson pri la grupo, kin informo mi donas sia? Flie, vi signis al mi dokumento de Esperanto, mi trovis amuza - mi pensi estas simpla gvido al Esperanto, kaj mi amuzis de simpla Esperanto pli lingvo natura - vi donas mi kopio? Dankon! ----- Pardon the broken and pidgin Esperanto, it is the result of 20 minutes studying the 16 rules site and 3 hours with that and an Esperanto - English Dictionary. If this is to evolve in to a chapter of STARFLEET, what do we know about the chapter? Is anything established? Richard Kinne is CO, are any other command staff positions filled? Do we even know what the command staff positions are? What fictional era the ship will be? What class the ship will be? What the mission is, in the fiction? Do we want an IRC channel on Fleetchat? Will we have a web site? Is it to early to be asking these questions? Until and unless Mark Anbinder joins the list, I'm probably the person with the most experience navigating the muddy STARFLEET waters. While I don't want any command position on the chapter, I will do what I can to help out with the FLEET angle of things. I'd use a different term then visiting members for members of FLEET for whom Espero is not their primary affiliation. I just don't like it, it implies to me only a passing interest in the chapter. That might just be semantics. Perhaps "affiliates" could be used for non-FLEETers and "associate" could be used for members who are primarily affiliated with another chapter. Please feel free to privately correct my Esperanto usage - email me at jccohen@14850.com Sort of private to Richard - Allyson Dyar is interested in the chapter, what info can I give her, if any? Also, a while back you showed me some sort of sheet on Esperanto, that I found very amusing- I think it was a simple guide to Esperanto, and I was amused by just how simple it was compared to a naturally evolved language- could you get me a copy of that? Thanks! -- JC COHEN Membero, Stelos^ipo Espero jccohen@14850.com Korektu mi Esperanto en privata! ----- JC Cohen Member, Starship Espero jccohen@14850.com Correct my Esperanto in private! From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 11 20:24:54 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:24:54 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: References: <20021110201234.GA6045@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <20021111202453.GD9385@hundred-acre-wood.com> I've got a correction in progress to help JC (hope you'll take it in that spirit, JC!) but I wanted to get some answers out more quickly, and time is a bit short for me at the moment... > If this is to evolve in to a chapter of STARFLEET, what do we know about the > chapter? Is anything established? Richard very much wants a science vessel. After some discussion, I believe I've convinced him not to use the Oberth (Grissom), which I really hate. We've talked about using the Constellation class. > Richard Kinne is CO, are any other > command staff positions filled? Richard and I have been talking about the possibility that I would return to Starfleet as his XO and/or Engineer. That's about it. > will be? What the mission is, in the fiction? Our current thought (subject to change, of course) is that Espero will join the Accord Task Force, balancing the three purely military vessels (the Akyazi wolfpack). > Do we want an IRC channel on Fleetchat? Will we have a web site? Haven't talked about IRC. There will be a web site. Short-term, it will probably be hosted just out of Doc's personal space somewhere. Long term, we may host it here at Itasca, or somewhere else, with a domain name of its own. > Is it to early to be asking these questions? Yes and no. It's not to early to speculate and brainstorm. It's too early to feel we need to nail any of it down. > Please feel free to privately correct my Esperanto usage - email me at > jccohen@14850.com As I said, correction is in progress. I was actually going to post it here, since I know Rahadyan is also at an early learning stage, and I thought it would be educational, but if you'd prefer private, that's fine, too. Mikey From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 03:04:52 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:04:52 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo Message-ID: <20021114030452.GA15887@hundred-acre-wood.com> JC gave me permission to forward this to the entire group. ----- Forwarded message from Michael Scott Shappe ----- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:18:43 -0600 From: Michael Scott Shappe To: jccohen@14850.com Subject: Re: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo Some initial thoughts: Don't be too disheartened by the volume of my comments. Keep in mind that to some degree, I'm thinking aloud to make sure *I'm* getting it right as I correct you, and leaving the thinking process there for you to learn from or ignore as you choose :-) In many cases, you were very close, but got tripped up by accusative case or by colloquial English's muddy syntax, which I find often has to be recast in more formal terms before it translates well. You also need to be careful when using the dictionaries to note that words like 'affiliate' in English will (or at least, should) return you at least *two* forms -- a noun (filio) and the infinitive of a verb (filii). Several of my corrections below are of this type. When translating from English to Esperanto (which is what just about all of us are still doing -- none of us are good enough yet to 'think' in Esperanto at will), there are two major pitfalls to watch out for. The first is that English has a nasty tendency to use the same form for entirely different parts of speech. The present participle (a verb made into an adjective) looks the same as a gerund (a verb made into a noun) -- both end in '-ing'. The past participle looks the same as the past tense for most (but not all) verbs -- both ending in '-ed'. So the first thing you need to think carefully about is how you're actually using the words. The second is that English has become a very noun-and-adjective heavy language. Sometimes, we don't even see it. Consider this phrase from Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan -- "It had the virtue of never having been tried." How many verbs in that sentence? If you answered more than 'one', you're wrong. 'having been tried' is a cascade of adjectives -- participles. Only 'had' is a verb. Take a look at the archives for a more thorough treatment of that particularly knotty phrase. On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 01:29:17AM -0500, J.C. Cohen wrote: > Pardonas Pardonu -- The imperative is used both for direct commands, and for things you think should happen or are asking to happen. A command, after all, is just a truncated request :-) > la rompita kaj pidgina Esperanto, estas la rezulto de dudek minutoj > studis 'estas la rezulto de dudek minutoj de studado...' The '-ad' suffix is probably the closest Esperanto comes to a gerund. The best English translation is 'studying'. Note that in English, the present participle and the gerund look identical -- '-ing'. But their meaning is different. One is an adjective, one is a noun. In Esperanto, if you took the present active participle ('-anta') and just used it as a noun (by turning 'a' into 'o'), you don't get a gerund; you get a 'one-who'. 'Esperanto' means 'one who hopes'. 'Esperado' means 'the continual act of hoping'. > la situo de dek ses reguloj kaj tri horoj kun ke kaj vortaro > de Esperanto kaj Angla Lingvo. 'kun tio'. 'Ke' means 'that' when used to introduce subordinate clauses; 'tio' means 'that' when used as a pronoun or correlative. > C^u tio c^i evoli en grupo Travlang suggests that 'evolui' is the infitive for 'to evolve', but what you really want here is 'evoluus': 'Se tio c^i evoluus en grupon' -- 'en grupo' means 'in a group', 'en grupon' means 'into a group'. BUT: I'm not sure if this use of 'into' -- perfectly correct in English -- is correct Esperanto. > de STELOFLOTON, No accusative here, tho' -- 'STELOFLOTO'. > ni koni koncerne la grupo? 'kio ni konas' > Estas iu aj^i establos? 'Estas io ajn establita?', if you insist on keeping it passive. An active form might be 'C^u vi establis ion ajn?' -- Have you established anything? Or if you wanted to keep the subject vague: 'C^u io ajn establig^is'? The '-ig^' suffix creates a reflexive verb that replaces many uses of the passive voice. Esperanto prefers to avoid passive forms whenever possible. They're allowed when no other meaning suffices, but Esperanto has a number of tricks (including simply reformulating, as above) to get around the truly passive voice. > Rikardo KINNE estas oficiro komandata, Esperanto has a nice distinction built into it between our two meanings of 'captain', so the long form of 'commanding officer' isn't necessary when talking about a ship. Take 's^ipo' and 'estro' which means master and put them together and you get 's^ipestro'. For the rank, just use 'kapitano'. Also: 'komandanto': 'one who commands'. Command staff: 'komandaro'. Command staff member: 'komandarano'. '-ar' means group; '-an' means member. > estas alia komandata pozicoj enspacas? Recast actively: 'C^u ni enspacis (au^ plenigis) aliaj komandaraj pozicoj?' > Ni konas kio estos la komondata pozicoj? 'C^u ni konas kiu estos la komandaraj pozicoj?' ('kiu' because the real English meaning here should be 'which' not 'what). > Kio estos fikcia erao la s^ipo? 'Je kiu fikcia erao estos la s^ipo?'. 'Je' is a catch-all preposition for use particularly with time, because 'en' only means 'in/on a place'. 'In which fictional era will the ship be?' > Kio estos tipo la s^ipo? 'De kiu...' > Kio estos la misio en la fikco? This one works with 'kio' or 'kiu', IMO. > Ni deziri interreto babilado c^ambro en Flotobabilado? Ni havos > komputero situo? 'Ni diziras retbabiliadan c^ambron...' or 'Ni diziras c^ambron por retbabili'. And I am extremely amused that the Esperanto for 'chat' is 'babili' :-) In many other languages, we'd use a genitive case noun for 'IRC' in the phrase 'IRC channel' ('channel of IRC'). Esperanto has no true genitive, but it *does* allow an adjective used as a posessive, which is how the first form is made. The second form literally translates as 'channel for net-chat'. If you wanted to, you could also say 'retbabiladc^ambro' -- Esperanto can build words like German can, altho' practically speaking, Esperanto tends to stop short of this degree of complexity. > Estas fue petas tio c^i pensoj? 'frue'. 'Estas tro frue ke petas c^i-tio pensojn?' or 'Estas tro frue por peti c^i-tio pensojn?'. The first form uses a dependent clause: 'Is (it) too early that (I) ask these questions?' > G^is kaj kromse Marko ANBINDER alig^is la listo, 'alig^us la liston' or 'alig^os la liston' > mi estas probable la persono kun plej sperto navigas la kotkovrita STELOFLOTO akvoj. Definitely not 'navigas', but possibly 'por navigi', or maybe 'sperto kun navigado'. 'la kotkovritaj akvoj de STELOFLOTO'. These may have to be rendered accusative even tho' there's no real verb here: 'la kotkovritajn akvojn de STELOFLOTO'. > Mi ne deziras komandata pozico en la grupo mi faros kio kapablas helpi kun la > STELOFLOTO angulo de aj^oj. Working from your English translation: 'Dum mi ne deziras komandaran pozicon en la grupo, mi faros kio ke kapablas por helpi...' > Mi uzus diferenca termino ol "visiton membroj" 'visitantaj membroj' or perhaps just 'visitantoj' -- visitors. > por membroj de SETELOFLOTO ne uzado Espero kiel sia primara grupo. '...de STELEFLOTO ke ne usas /Espero/n kiel ilia primara grupo' > Mi nur ne plac^as g^i implicas al mi > sole havi interson milda pri la grupo. 'Mi ne s^atas g^in; g^i implicas al mi ke sole havas intereson mildan pri la grupo.' > Estas eble sole semantiko. Eble "filiifi" "filioj" > uzus por ne mebroj de STELOFLOTO Your English version was passive voice, "could be used". 'Ni eblus uzi "filioj" por nemembroj...' "We could [would be able] to use..." > kaj "kunigo" uzus por membroj kun estas primara membroj de diferenca grupo. 'kaj "kunigo" por membroj kiu estas primare (or unue) membroj de...' Keep at it! /m ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Michael Scott "Uncle Mikey" Shappe PGP/GPG Public Key: finger mikey@melm.org "The mountain was so beautiful that this guy built a mall and a pizza shack, Yeah, he built an ugly city because he wanted the mountain to love him back." -- Dar Williams, "What Do You Love More than Love?" From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 04:55:16 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:55:16 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> Gesinjoroj: 2252EST 2002.11.13 Mi volis fari =C4=89i-tio tuta en Esperanto, sed mia laboro sur = mia=20 astronomiaj studoj malhelpus tio, samtempe. (I wanted to do this entirely in Esperanto, but my work on my=20 astronomical studies may prevent that, currently.) On Monday, Nov 11, 2002, at 01:29 America/New_York, J.C. Cohen wrote: > Pardon the broken and pidgin Esperanto, it is the result of 20 minutes > studying the 16 rules site and 3 hours with that and an Esperanto -=20 > English > Dictionary. I won't pardon it at all, JC. You made an astounding, = astounding=20 effort, and it was really great. I also want to thank you for -=20 apparently - letting Miko put his corrections on the list. Everyone,=20 please let that be done. We're all learning this language - that's part=20= of the point of Espero. As Miko said, none of us are experts in=20 Esperanto. Some of us have the benefit of a year's experience (more or=20= less) in the language. Some of us have the benefit of formal collegiate=20= linguistic study. And some of us have the benefit of somehow being able=20= to pick up root words like a son-of-a-bitch!! 8-) But we're all=20 learning, and we can all help each other. > If this is to evolve in to a chapter of STARFLEET, what do we know=20 > about the > chapter? Is anything established? Richard Kinne is CO, are any other > command staff positions filled? Do we even know what the command = staff > positions are? What fictional era the ship will be? What class the=20= > ship > will be? What the mission is, in the fiction? Do we want an IRC=20 > channel on > Fleetchat? Will we have a web site? > > Is it to early to be asking these questions? Mik=C4=89jo put it best. It's not too early to ask the = questions. It's=20 just to early to set them in stone. Indeed, one of the reasons I am=20 excited about the list finally being started and it being advertised in=20= a week or so is that I didn't want me and Miko and Timo deciding=20 everything. I didn't think that was quite fair. But, to put my 2=20 euros into the discussion: It is MY goal that this evolve into a Starfleet chapter. That is = not a=20 priority that either Miko or Timo have, I think. I think we can hold=20 both visions. I will work at making Espero part of Fleet. Until and=20 unless that happens, this still is an organization unto itself and can=20= function as such, I would think. Nothing is ESTABLISHED, per se. Right now, I'm the =C5=9Dipestro = sorta=20 because it was my idea in the first place. Due to my goal of making=20 this a Fleet chapter, I'LL be looking for an XO who can fulfill Fleet's=20= requirements AND is better than I am at the language. This is, by the=20 way, the reason I'm trying to lure Mik=C4=89jo back into Fleet with this=20= project. Right now I can't imagine too many people better until, or=20 unless, this vision fires up folks within the Esperanto community=20 itself. Right now there is not "Command Staff," per se. Right now I see = us as=20 a "steering committee," very much like how Accord started. As things=20 develop over the next few months the vision I had was a Command=20 Divison, a Sciences Division that would handle membership and other=20 records, a Communications Division that would handle an (online)=20 newsletter, and probably fiction, and an Engineering Division that=20 would handle the website, listserv, etc. Operations? Well, as a=20 retpo=C5=9Dta =C4=89apitro I'm not sure what Operations would do, but = I'm very=20 willing to hear ideas! Right now our fictional era is 2302, largely because that's = where most=20 of us come from and I thought of putting Espero in the Accord Task=20 Force which would tie us in fictionally with Accord. Why? Well, I=20 sorta like Accord. 8-) I'm not married to that time period, however. =20= I'm willing to hear other folks on this. While watching Classic Trek a=20= couple of weeks ago, I thought of that time period. And, I've been=20 half-joking with Alex for the last year that I wanted to be the first=20 person in Fleet to push through a 29th Century Timeship through his=20 office, but I think that such a concept might give Mikey heart failure.=20= 8-) As Miko noted I did fall in love with the Soyuz class ships, but = I=20 also recognized there was interesting problems with the design. Right=20 now the Constellation class vessel is at the top of the list, but=20 again, I am very willing to hear other ideas. I'd thought a medical=20 ship would be perfect since Zamanof was a Doktoro. However, we don't=20 have many medical ship's to choose from and I'm not sure how=20 adventurous a medical ship could be. 8-) About the only thing I'm=20 rather against is a purely military vessel since that would go strongly=20= against the grain of the Esperanta movado. Right now, I'm not sure any of us is good enough at Esperanto to=20= handle an IRC channel. There will be a website, as Miko said, originally hosted from my=20= personal space. I'll be working on a draft of that next week. Once we=20= have Engineering set up (if my personal vision wins out) then that=20 Divison will have sway over the site and where it is. As Accord Fiction=20= Editor I felt I could justify a strict level of management, almost=20 micromanagement. That's not the case here. Yea, I have a vision, but I=20= don't want to make the same mistakes I apparently made with Accord=20 Fiction with this project. > Until and unless Mark Anbinder joins the list, I'm probably the person=20= > with > the most experience navigating the muddy STARFLEET waters. While I=20 > don't > want any command position on the chapter, I will do what I can to help=20= > out > with the FLEET angle of things. That's fine, JC. I'm not gonna be shy at asking for help from = Fleet=20 whether they're part of Espero or not. > I'd use a different term then visiting members for members of FLEET=20 > for whom > Espero is not their primary affiliation. I just don't like it, it=20 > implies > to me only a passing interest in the chapter. That might just be=20 > semantics. > Perhaps "affiliates" could be used for non-FLEETers and "associate"=20 > could be > used for members who are primarily affiliated with another chapter. That's fine, JC. I'm not married to any of this terminology. My=20= thrust was to differentiate those folks who are both members of the=20 ship and in Fleet but not having Espero as their primary chapter, and=20 those folks who are members of Espero who are not in Fleet at all. =20 There may be a good argument that such distinctions might not really be=20= needed. > Please feel free to privately correct my Esperanto usage - email me at > jccohen@14850.com Again, I'm glad you had Miko do it to the list; it helps ALL of = us. Also, I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone here, none of us are=20= capable of either writing or reading Esperanto to such a degree that=20 nuances will be picked up so, please, take everything that is written=20 in the best light possible. I want us all to be friends here. Don't=20 ever take what is written here as an insult or a slight, at least if=20 its written in Esperanto. Chance are that the person didn't meant to=20 insult you and probably couldn't do it well in Esperanto even if he=20 did. 8-) (Exception: if, somehow, you catch me calling anyone a=20 =C2=ABmerdkapo,=C2=BB yea, I probably meant to insult them. 8-) ) > Sort of private to Richard - Allyson Dyar is interested in the=20 > chapter, what > info can I give her, if any? You can give her any info you want!!!! You can tell her to = email me,=20 and I will put it in my PADD to email her next week. Alyson is very=20 well thought of by both you and Mark so she comes with excellent=20 references and proven abilities. I'd be honored to have her aboard=20 Espero. > Also, a while back you showed me some sort of > sheet on Esperanto, that I found very amusing- I think it was a simple=20= > guide > to Esperanto, and I was amused by just how simple it was compared to a > naturally evolved language- could you get me a copy of that? Thanks! I THINK you're referring to a poster I had showing the = conjigation of=20 a French verb that went down the entire sheet of paper, and the next=20 column showed the same verb done in Esperanto, like four lines. You=20 can find a bunch of posters like this at the TTT-ejo de la=20 Esperanto-Ligo de Nordameriko at=20 . I think the one=20 you're looking for is called "French_Endings.pdf." Other interesting=20 ones for us are: "alien.pdf," and "sf_authors.pdf." Thanks folks. Sorry I've been away for a bit. We're three days = away=20 from the end of the semester and I've also had to deal with a violent=20 obsession with one Benjimino Tomaso SAMPLES. Details on that last will=20= be given privately upon request. It's not something that I can discuss=20= on Live Journal (which, now most of us on this list are on!) because=20 Ben=C4=89jo is on LJ and I've been acting enough of a fool in front of=20= everyone else that I don't have to embarrass myself in front of him. =20 :-) But, if anyone remembers Kirby Keger's behavior toward Dale=20 Biberman in "St. Elmo's Fire," well, that's how I've been acting.=20 Fortunately, Ben=C4=89jo is in Knoxville so I've not appeared at his = door in=20 the rain yet. 8-) 8-) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 05:08:10 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Rahadyan Sastrowardoyo) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:08:10 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] St. Richard's Fire In-Reply-To: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021114000625.026480d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 11:55 PM 11/13/2002 -0500, also sprach Doc: >:-) But, if anyone remembers Kirby Keger's behavior toward Dale Biberman=20 >in "St. Elmo's Fire," well, that's how I've been acting. Fortunately,=20 >Ben=C4=89jo is in Knoxville so I've not appeared at his door in the rain=20 >yet. 8-) 8-) Allah be merciful. Ben opens his door and finds a soaking wet Dr. Tripod. "Doc! How... are= you?" "Obsessed, thank you very much." Tim From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 05:22:22 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:22:22 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] St. Richard's Fire In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021114000625.026480d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <0DD5DCC0-F791-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> Gesinjoroj: 0019EST 2002.11.14 On Thursday, Nov 14, 2002, at 00:08 America/New_York, Rahadyan=20 Sastrowardoyo wrote: > At 11:55 PM 11/13/2002 -0500, also sprach Doc: > >> :-) But, if anyone remembers Kirby Keger's behavior toward Dale=20 >> Biberman in "St. Elmo's Fire," well, that's how I've been acting.=20 >> Fortunately, Ben=C3=84=E2=80=B0jo is in Knoxville so I've not = appeared at his door=20 >> in the rain yet. 8-) 8-) > > Allah be merciful. > > Ben opens his door and finds a soaking wet Dr. Tripod. "Doc! How...=20 > are you?" > "Obsessed, thank you very much." Bona. Mi estas feli=C4=89a ke iom konis la referencon. 8-) (Good. I'm happy that someone knew the reference. 8-) ) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 05:33:38 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Rahadyan Sastrowardoyo) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:33:38 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: [USS^-Espero] St. Richard's Fire In-Reply-To: <0DD5DCC0-F791-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021114000625.026480d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021114002724.03a38590@pop3.norton.antivirus> The movie itself is often held up as an example of bad 80's melodrama. And reports from some of the actors and actresses in it (particularly Ally Sheedy) reveal Joel Schumacher to be rather bastardly. And while David Foster is a very successful songwriter and producer, there's a certain corporate mechanicity to his compositions (so sayeth some critics) that I'll acknowledge is there, but I like his work anyway. That said, I have a very sentimental attachment to that movie, having seen it with my college crush, Emily Taravella, on its premiere date in June 1985 at the Ziegfeld Theater. I own two VHS copies of it (because I misplaced the first one). The DVD can wait, since it doesn't have extras apart from the John Parr video. I felt for Emily as Kirby did for Dale in that movie. Emily understood the crush, but never returned it. She was always careful not to exploit it in any way. We were friends for a few years beyond college. In our senior year, she started dating a freshman, Mark Di Taranto, and eventually married him. They were both lawyers and she left practice to become a full-time mom. I deliberately fell out of touch with a whole bunch of people about 6-7 years ago. She was one of them. Tim From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 21:08:36 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (J.C. Cohen) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:08:36 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> Message-ID: >(I wanted to do this entirely in Esperanto, but my work on my >astronomical studies may prevent that, currently.) And I just don't feel like translating, so this is in English from me, too... :-) >I won't pardon it at all, JC. Uhhhh... oooookay. >You made an astounding, astounding effort, and it was really great. Thanks. It was an honest effort. As Mikey said, there were errors, but there are some patterns to them so hopefully I can clear them up. >I also want to thank you for - apparently - letting Miko put his >corrections on the list. No problem. >And some of us have the benefit of somehow being able to pick up >root words like a son-of-a-bitch!! 8-) Sons of bitches pick up root words? >But we're all learning, and we can all help each other. Okee dokee. >It's not too early to ask the questions. It's just to early to set >them in stone. =46air enough. >Indeed, one of the reasons I am excited about the list finally being >started and it being advertised in a week or so is that I didn't >want me and Miko and Timo deciding everything. I didn't think that >was quite fair. Depends on how democratic you want the ship. I was assuming... perhaps incorrectly... that part of this, at least, seems to be based on Accord's "the captain is captain until he chooses not to be" philosophy. >It is MY goal that this evolve into a Starfleet chapter. That is not >a priority that either Miko or Timo have, I think. Until and unless >that happens, this still is an organization unto itself and can >function as such, I would think. Conversely, I think if the goal of joining FLEET fades away, so will at least some of my interest. I'm not trying to "hold the ship hostage to my will" or anything; its just that the FLEET angle keeps me interested. But I agree, from what you said, that the Esperanto community needs a sci-fi group, anyway, so it probably can survive on its own. >Due to my goal of making this a Fleet chapter, I'LL be looking for >an XO who can fulfill Fleet's requirements AND is better than I am >at the language. This is, by the way, the reason I'm trying to lure >Mik=9F=E2jo back into Fleet with this project. Right now I can't >imagine too many people better until, or unless, this vision fires >up folks within the Esperanto community itself. =46ulfilling FLEET's requirement for XO can actually be pretty easy, if the person is willing to read a couple of manuals. No offense meant to Mikey, who we all know makes a terrific XO. I'm just saying, in case he doesn't want it- a qualified person in the Esperanto community can take OTS and OCC pretty quickly, and pass just fine. >the vision I had was a Command Divison, a Sciences Division that >would handle membership and other records, a Communications Division >that would handle an (online) newsletter, and probably fiction, and >an Engineering Division that would handle the website, listserv, etc. All of this makes sense to me and is probably very similar to how I would do things. >Operations? Well, as a retpo=89=F9ta =9F=E2apitro I'm not sure what >Operations would do, but I'm very willing to hear ideas! Well... if the ship moves on to online activities (such as cooperative fiction, online role playing, a chat room, online tutorials) it could be in charge of coordinating those kinds of things. > Right now our fictional era is 2302, largely because that's >where most of us come from and I thought of putting Espero in the >Accord Task Force which would tie us in fictionally with Accord. That makes a lot of sense, and I certainly don't object. Let me play Devil's Advocate, though. I'm not sure I actually beleive any of these things, but... > I'm not married to that time period, however. I'm willing to hear >other folks on this. While watching Classic Trek a couple of weeks >ago, I thought of that time period. Classic is dangerous, especially as B&B slowly destroy classics continuity. Also, amongst fandom, I'm not sure how popular it is. I know that you, Doc, like the TNG Era. Personal preference of the CO is something to consider, imho. Don't want the CO to dislike his chapter. And lastly, of course, there is the fact that the "current" era of Trek is Enterprise Era. Plus, I can actually almost see a crew of Esperanto linguists being a First Contact team for Earth. Maybe less so, with the UT. >And, I've been half-joking with Alex for the last year that I wanted >to be the first person in Fleet to push through a 29th Century >Timeship through his office, but I think that such a concept might >give Mikey heart failure. 8-) Neh. I think Esperanto is a hell of a hook for a chapter... let some other chapter use time travel as its hook. Especially since Time Travel stories are so "done". >Right now the Constellation class vessel is at the top of the list, >but again, I am very willing to hear other ideas. The Constellation is a favorite of mine, because of the 4 Nacelle design. >I'd thought a medical ship would be perfect since Zamanof was a >Doktoro. However, we don't have many medical ship's to choose from >and I'm not sure how adventurous a medical ship could be. 8-) Although a plague in the New Colonies would be rather interesting... >About the only thing I'm rather against is a purely military vessel >since that would go strongly against the grain of the Esperanta >movado. Peace through superior linguistic firepower! > Right now, I'm not sure any of us is good enough at Esperanto >to handle an IRC channel. True, true... although I'm not sure that the online discussions would have to be in Esperanto, at least not all the time. >You can give her any info you want!!!! You can tell her to email >me, and I will put it in my PADD to email her next week. Alyson is >very well thought of by both you and Mark so she comes with >excellent references and proven abilities. I'd be honored to have >her aboard Espero. I doubt she'd want to switch her primary membership over but she seemed interested in it as an affiliate. >You can find a bunch of posters like this at the TTT-ejo de la >Esperanto-Ligo de Nordameriko at >. I think the >one you're looking for is called "French_Endings.pdf." Other >interesting ones for us are: "alien.pdf," and "sf_authors.pdf." I didn't think it was a poster, but yes, that's it. Like the others, too. -- JC COHEN Membero, Stelos^ipo Espero jccohen@14850.com Korektu mi Esperanto en privata! ----- JC Cohen Member, Starship Espero jccohen@14850.com Correct my Esperanto in private! From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 21:16:09 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (rtsindo@erols.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:16:09 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] A thought Message-ID: <269620-220021141421169580@M2W090.mail2web.com> As JC has pointed out, the "current" Trek era is the Enterprise one=2E=20 I know that there was at least one valiant (no pun intended) attempt at an= Enterprise-era shuttle, the Alexandria (Rick Driver's and Karen Mitchell's= prospective chapter), that didn't launch for many reasons=2E As well, Adam= Bernay has attempted to start a new chapter (forget if it's a station or a= ship), the Wendell Fertig, also of the 2150's=2E While ultimately the decision is Doc's and Mikey's (and the other Espero command staff officers) as to what metaphor they will choose, JC's idea of= a ship whose charter is to iron out the kinks in the Universal Translator is an intriguing one=2E Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 14 21:18:23 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (rtsindo@erols.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:18:23 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Question about the Espero ad in CQ Message-ID: <265000-2200211414211823597@M2W090.mail2web.com> I haven't gotten the current (#113) issue of Communique yet, but is the ad= for Espero supposed to be in this one, or the one that comes out in late December/early January ($114)? Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 15 00:08:11 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:08:11 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> Message-ID: <20021115000810.GA18979@hundred-acre-wood.com> Plu pensoj. Rilate Eraoj: Mi preferas eraon de Akordo, primare c^ar g^i estas erao ke mi plej bone konas. Mi ne vidas /Enterprise/ ofte (kvankam, se mi ac^etos Tivon, tio s^angos). Mi neniam vidis /Voyager/, nek mi kredas ke la farig^oj figurinta iam farig^is. Mi vidis sole kelkan de /DS9/, kaj neniam vidis la tutan de /TNG/. Tio lasas /TOS/ kaj kinofilmojn. Mi ne timas /TOS/n kaj g^ia konsekvenco, c^ar /Espero/, kiel /Akordo/, vivos en sia mundeto. Do, se ni elektos uzi la /TOS/eraon, ni povas ignori kio ke ne s^atas ekde /Enterprise/. Mi akceptas ke mi devus realig^i STELOFLOTON. Mi esperas ke mi ne devos reprovig^i en OTS au^ OCC. Mi sentas sufic^e forte pri /Espero/ ke mi pagos al /STELOFLOTON/ por denove esti membro; sed mi neniam s^atis la testojn, kaj mi ne reprovig^os. Tio estas kio determinos c^u mi volos esti Unua Oficiro au^ simple Ing^enierestro. Mi akordas kun Rikardo ke Operacia Fako ne estas bezona, almenau^, ne se ni definas fakojn simileal /Akordo/. Ing^enierada Fako alpas^os plej de la detaloj por <> kaj eventoj, c^ar plej de ili okazos rete. Fine, permisu min kurag^igi ke vi farus tempon por skribi al liston Esperante kiam ke vi povas. Apliki faras perfektecon! Miko -------- More thoughts. Regarding era: I prefer Accord's era, primarily because it's the era that I know best. I don't watch /Enterprise/ often (although, if I get a Tivo, that will change). I never watched /Voyager/, neither do I believe that the events depicted ever happened. I watched only some of /DS9/, and never saw all of /TNG/. That leaves /TOS/ and the films. I'm not afraid of /TOS/ and its continuity, because /Espero/, like /Accord/, will live in its own little world. So, if we choose to use the /TOS/ era, we can ignore what we don't like from /Enterprise/. I accept that I will have to rejoin STARFLEET. I hope that I will not have to retake the OTS and OCC tests.[*] I feel sufficiently strongly about /Espero/ that I will pay STARFLEET to be a member again; but I don't like the tests, and I won't retake them. This is what will determine whether I will want to be First officer or just Chief Engineer. I agree with Richard that the Operations Department is not needed, at least, if we define the departments similarly to /Accord/. Engineering will handle most of the details for "meetings" and events, because most of them will happen online[**]. Finally, allow me to encourage you to make time to write to the list in Esperanto when you can. Practice makes perfect! Mikey [*] The Esperanto literally translates as, 'I hope that I will not have to become tested again'. [**] Rete -- 'Networkly' From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 15 01:45:54 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:45:54 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Demandoj pri la Espero anonco en CQ In-Reply-To: <265000-2200211414211823597@M2W090.mail2web.com> Message-ID: Timo: 2039EST 2002.11.14 On Thursday, Nov 14, 2002, at 16:18 America/New_York, rtsindo@erols.com=20= wrote: > I haven't gotten the current (#113) issue of Communique yet, but is=20 > the ad > for Espero supposed to be in this one, or the one that comes out in=20 > late > December/early January ($114)? Mi planas havi la Pramo Espero anonco en la CQ #114, nun. Mi = afis^os=20 g^in c^i-tio antau^ mi sendas g^in al Allyson je novembro 25a. (I plan to have the Shuttle Espero advertisement in CQ #114, = now. I=20 will post it here before I send it to Allyson on November 25th.) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 15 08:11:51 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (J.C. Cohen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:11:51 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: <20021115000810.GA18979@hundred-acre-wood.com> References: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> <20021115000810.GA18979@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: Rigardas pinto de Espero esta en g^ia mondo malgranda- au^ la mondo sama de Accordo- estas bona pinto. Sed ni decidis, por celoj de Accordo, ke aj^oj de ekranon ne egale por la grupo, ni probable ne pensis kanono estus en la situacio al kontrau^diri nia fikcio. Estas ne la kazo nuna. Mi penso c^efa de epoko estas deziras vokali al au^dantaro granda, kaj ke donas avantag^o al Entrepreno. Sed mi ne zorgo, precipe mi g^uas la ideo de la universo de Accordo fikcia. La aj^o plej inteligenta demandos personoj ekster la komunumo de Accordo fikcia. Mikey, alig^us FLOTO kaj OTS/OCC estus problemo, parolus al Operacioj. Mi parenceco c^e Joost estas bela, kaj vi diris (vi pensis ig^is XO de la Czarako) estis XO, vi prenis la ekzamenoj. Mi konsentas de skribi en Esperanto. ----- Regarding the point about Espero being in its own little world- or the same world as Accord- its a good point. But when we decided, for Accord purposes, that things on screen don't matter for the group, we probably did not think that cannon would ever be in the situation to directly contradict our fiction. This is not the case now. My main thought on era is I'd like to appeal to a big audience, and that gives Enterprise an advantage. But I don't care, especially since I enjoy the idea of the Accord fiction universe. The smartest thing to do might be to ask some people from outside the Accord fiction community. Mikey, if you join FLEET and OTS/OCC are a problem, I will speak to Ops. My relationship with Joost is fine, and as you said (when you thought you might become XO of the Czarak) you've BEEN XO, so you have taken those tests. I agree with you on the writing in Esperanto. -- JC COHEN Membero, Stelos^ipo Espero jccohen@14850.com Korektu mi Esperanto ----- JC Cohen Member, Starship Espero jccohen@14850.com Correct my Esperanto From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 15 14:34:55 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:34:55 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6888772C-F8A7-11D6-B877-00039373299C@arrl.net> Gesinjoroj: 0846EST 2002.11.15 Iom da rapide komentoj... JC, "Accord" estas skribanta =C2=ABAkordo=C2=BB en Esperanto. Homaj nomo neformala estas kreinta kun la -c^j- sufikso: Doc =3D=20= Dokc^jo, Ben =3D Benc^jo, Mikey =3D Mic^jo. Mi s^atas kion JC diris pri la Enterprizo epoko. Mi opinias ke = ni=20 bezonas vidi la avantag^oj de c^iu epoko. La filma epoko donas al nin=20 kono kaj preta fono. La Enterpriza epoko donas al nin populareco. Mi=20 opinias, eble, ni povas komenci en la filma epoko c^ar ni konas tion.=20 Se, poste, homoj s^atas alia epoko pli bona, ni komutus. Mi parolis al Vicadmirilo ANBINDER lasta nokton. Estas ne = problemo kun=20 la OTS kaj OCC diplomoj. Ni havas nia unua oficiro, se li akceptos... =20= Mi ne povus demandi por pli bona homo!! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Some quick comments... JC, "Accord" is written =C2=ABAkordo=C2=BB in Esperanto. Make nicknames are created with the -c^j- suffix: Doc =3D = Dokc^jo, Ben =3D=20 Benc^jo, Mikey =3D Mikc^jo. I like what JC said about the Enterprize era. I think that we = need to=20 see the advantages of each era. The film era gives us knowledge and=20 background. The Enterprize era gives us popularity. I think, maybe, we=20= can begin in the film era because we know it. If, later, people like=20 another era better we might switch. I talked to Vice Admiral Anbinder last night. There is no = problem with=20 the OTS and OCC diplomas. We have our First Officer, if he will=20 accept... I couldn't ask for a better man!! --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABUS=C5=9C Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 15 18:51:14 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (J.C. Cohen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:51:14 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: <6888772C-F8A7-11D6-B877-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <6888772C-F8A7-11D6-B877-00039373299C@arrl.net> Message-ID: Mi dankas c^ar la korektojn! JC estus JCc^jo? Pfft. Mi konsideris, startus mi grupo, kreas universo fikcia kovri tuta epoko... stelos^ipoj dividas la nomo en tuta epokoj. Estas ankau^ ambicia por la grupo posedas hoko? ----- Thanks for the corrections! JC would be JCc^jo? Pfft. I considered, if I ever started my chapter, creating a fictional universe to cover any era... starships sharing the name in all eras. Too ambitious for a chapter that already has a hook? -- JC COHEN Membero, Stelos^ipo Espero jccohen@14850.com Korektu mi Esperanto en privata! ----- JC Cohen Member, Starship Espero jccohen@14850.com Correct my Esperanto in private! From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 16 03:50:41 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:50:41 -0600 Subject: Korektoj Re: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: References: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> <20021115000810.GA18979@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <20021116035041.GA22819@hundred-acre-wood.com> Korektoj, prime. La sekva mesag^o havos respondojn. Vi signifoplene plibonigas! > Rigardas pinto de Espero esta en g^ia mondo malgranda- Rigarde au^ rilate. Mi rekomendas: 'Rigarde la pinto ke Espero estas en g^ia mondo malgrana (au^, kiel mi diris, 'mondeto') > au^ la mondo sama de Accordo- Kiel Rikardo diris, /Akordo/. Kiu vi skribis, prononcig^us /a-ts-ts-or-do/. > estas bona pinto. Sed ni decidis, por celoj de 'Sed, kiam ni decidis...' > Accordo, ke aj^oj de ekranon ne egale por la grupo, ni probable ne '...ke aj^oj de ekrano ne estas grava por la grupo...' 'egale' estas adverbo ke intencas 'equally'. > pensis kanono estus en la situacio al kontrau^diri nia fikcio. Estas 'kanono' estas granda fusilo, au^ angle 'cannon'. Vi intencis 'canon', kiu estas 'eklezia regulo' au^ 'religia regulo'. Angle: 'canon' has always been an unfortunate coinage for fandom, and one which I must admit I helped to spread at one time, to my shame. 'Canon' has only one real meaning: the rules of a given religion. When one speaks of the 'canonical' Bible, one speaks of the bible as a given religion has arranged and translated it. I'm not sure what the correct Esperanto replacement should be, but 'kanono' is not it :-) > ne la kazo nuna. Mi penso c^efa de epoko estas deziras vokali al '...estas, ke mi deziras apelacii...' > au^dantaro granda, kaj ke donas avantag^o al Entrepreno. '...kaj tio donas avantag^on...' > Sed mi ne zorgo, '..zorgas...' > precipe mi g^uas la ideo de la universo de Accordo fikcia. 'precipe c^ar g^uas la ideon...' > La aj^o plej inteligenta demandos personoj 'demandos de personoj...' > Mikey, alig^us FLOTO kaj OTS/OCC estus problemo problemoj > Operacioj. Mi parenceco c^e Joost estas bela, kaj vi diris (vi '(kiam vi...' > pensis ig^is XO de la Czarako) estis XO, vi prenis la ekzamenoj. 'pensis ke ig^is' From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 16 04:03:57 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:03:57 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Pensoj de grupo In-Reply-To: References: <44391743-F78D-11D6-9CF4-00039373299C@arrl.net> <20021115000810.GA18979@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <20021116040357.GB22819@hundred-acre-wood.com> Kaj nun, mian respondon Mi ne akordas ke /Enterprise/ au^tomate donus avantag^on. Mi konas multajn personojn kiu ne s^atas /Voyager/ au^ /Enterprise/, ec^ se ili s^atis /TNG/ au^ /DS9/. /Enterprise/ elrevigas iun. Ankau^, /Enterprise/ estas pli dang^era ol /TOS/, rilate konsekvenco, c^ar g^i estas ankorau^ skribata. Rilate OTS/OCC: Mi dankas vin, kaj Markon, kiu skribis hodiau^ al Marlenino pro defini mian staton. -- And now, my response I don't agree that /Enterprise/ automatically would give us an advantage. I know many people who don't like /Voyager/ or /Enterprise/ even if they liked /TNG/ or /DS9/. /Enterprise/ disappoints some. Also, /Enterprise/ is more dangerous than /TOS/ for kontinuity, because it's still being written. Regarding OTS/OCC: Thank you, and Mark, who wrote today to Marlene to determine my status... /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 16 04:08:15 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:08:15 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] A thought In-Reply-To: <269620-220021141421169580@M2W090.mail2web.com> References: <269620-220021141421169580@M2W090.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20021116040815.GC22819@hundred-acre-wood.com> > a ship whose charter is to iron out the kinks in the Universal Translator > is an intriguing one. If we were to decide on an /Enterprise/ era mission, a broader version of this -- a follow-up 'second contact' ship with a focus on improving understanding -- could be very interesting indeed. First contact is all cool and stuff, but the way /Enterprise/ has been doing it is very flash-in-the-pan -- quantity rather than quality... /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sun Nov 17 06:12:36 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:12:36 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Membreco Message-ID: <3DD73354.4050906@hundred-acre-wood.com> Mi nur realiĝis Stelofloton. Mi petis ilin ke asignos min al Akordo, je nun. /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 18 05:18:44 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:18:44 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] VivaJ^urnalo en Esperanto! Message-ID: <3DD87834.2000800@hundred-acre-wood.com> From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 18 05:45:35 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:45:35 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] VivaJ^urnalo en Esperanto! In-Reply-To: <3DD87834.2000800@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: Mik=C4=89jo: 0030EST 2002.11.18 On Monday, Nov 18, 2002, at 00:18 America/New_York, Michael Scott=20 Shappe wrote: > Jes, dankon. Mi estis uzanta Esperanton sur LJ-o =C4=9Dis pli ol = 3 monatoj.=20 La tradukoj faris bona laboron. Bona ligo, kvankam. :-) =C4=88iuj uzu =C4=9Din! --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABPramo Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 18 05:49:42 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:49:42 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Membreco In-Reply-To: <3DD73354.4050906@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <8886CAF4-FAB9-11D6-8A17-00039373299C@arrl.net> Mik=C4=89jo: 0047EST 2002.11.18 On Sunday, Nov 17, 2002, at 01:12 America/New_York, Michael Scott=20 Shappe wrote: > Mi nur reali=C4=9Dis Stelofloton. > > Mi petis ilin ke asignos min al Akordo, je nun. Marko diris al min. Li estas kolera ke mi ka=C5=9Diras lia = =C5=9Dipanaro. :-) (Mark told me. He's angry that I'm stealing his crew. :-) ) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABPramo Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 18 06:16:13 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:16:13 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Membreco In-Reply-To: <8886CAF4-FAB9-11D6-8A17-00039373299C@arrl.net> References: <8886CAF4-FAB9-11D6-8A17-00039373299C@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3DD885AD.70206@hundred-acre-wood.com> > Marko diris al min. Li estas kolera ke mi kaŝiras lia ŝipanaro. :-) > > (Mark told me. He's angry that I'm stealing his crew. :-) ) Ne je mia kazo. Mi ne estas estinta lia s^ipano jam de sep jaroj! :-P :-) Mi malfikig^is kiam mi ekveturis Itakon, kaj tiam, mi estis s^ipano de <> dum du au^ tri jaroj. Mi retenas kunig^membreco dum vivo, sed ne estas vere s^ipano. Nek mi estus, pro makproksimeco). (Not in my case. I haven't been his crewmember for seven years! I became detached when I left Ithaca, and then, I was crew on /Czar'ak/ for two or three years. I retain associate membership for life, but I'm not truly a crewmember. Nor could I be, because of distance.) /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Mon Nov 18 17:38:55 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:38:55 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Bonvenon! Message-ID: <9C76FF42-FB1C-11D6-8A17-00039373299C@arrl.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Apple-Mail-8--795606444 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Bu: 1232EST 2002.11.18 Bonvenon al la Pramo Espero! Nun, vi devas realigi STELAFLOTO... :-) Cu vi interesas en la Komunikestro pozicio por ci-tiu sipo? :-) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Welcome to the Shuttle Espero! Now, you have to rejoin STARFLEET... :-) Are you interested in the Chief Communications position on this ship? =20 :-) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la antau-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 --Apple-Mail-8--795606444 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Bu: 1232EST 2002.11.18 Bonvenon al la Pramo Espero! Nun, vi devas realigi STELAFLOTO... :-) Cu vi interesas en la Komunikestro pozicio por ci-tiu sipo? :-) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Welcome to the Shuttle Espero! Now, you have to rejoin STARFLEET... :-) Are you interested in the Chief Communications position on this ship?=20 :-) --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la antau-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 <. Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: < Faksilo: 413-460-6304 --Apple-Mail-8--795606444-- From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Tue Nov 19 19:40:53 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:40:53 -0800 Subject: [USS^-Espero] The Perils of Translation: Idiom Message-ID: <3DDA93C5.2080906@hundred-acre-wood.com> Preface This is the first in what I hope will be a series of articles -- eventually to find their way in more polished form (and hopefully after review by more Esperanto-clueful people than myself) to /Espero/'s someday website. Each will focus on a particularly thorny issue regarding translation. For now, the articles will be in English, so that the currently-all-English-speaking membership will not have to struggle both with the language and with the concepts. The Perils of Translation: Idiom Richard has been particularly outspoken in his dislike for 'idiom', and his fear that nearly *all* utterances of speech can be considered idiomatic. He also said, some months back, in a post to the LiveJournal 'learn_esperanto' Community: "One of the selling points about Esperanto is that it doesn't have any idioms to memorize." This article's purpose is to try to demystify the concept of 'idiom', while at the same time demonstrating that Esperanto does, in fact, have idioms of its own. So, what exactly *is* an idiom? Merriam-Webster offers this as it's #2 definition of the word: '2 : an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself either grammatically[...] or in having a meaning that cannot be derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements[...]' On the surface, this would seem to mean that any expression that breaks the 'letter of the law' of the language is an idiom. It is in this context that I assert that Esperanto does, indeed, have idioms of its own, but we'll get back to that in a second. In fact, the definition above does not require an idiom to violate the rules of the language it's spoken in. It merely requires that the generally accepted meaning of the expression be different from the sum of its parts. English is a painful language to learn because its formal grammar is littered with idiomatic phrases. Consider the following sentence: 'I am learning Esperanto.' As native English speakers, we understand the breakdown of this sentence to be: (I: subject) (am learning: verb) (Esperanto: object) This is 'present progressive tense', that implies an ongoing activity. But in fact, if one looks just words and the forms they're used in, the verb in that sentence is 'to be'. 'Learning' is a participle, an adjective. A literal breakdown of the sentence would be (I: subject) (am: verb) (learning Esperanto: adjective phrase) Of course, broken down this way, the sentence makes no real sense except in an existentialist sort of way. But for someone trying to translate this phrase, understanding the distinction is very important. The correct translation for the sentence into Esperanto would be: 'Mi lernas Esperanto.' not 'Mi estas lernanta Esperanto.' because Esperanto's present tense covers both the simple and the progressive (and the perfect and the perfect progressive) aspects of the English present tense; that is, anything that can be said to still be happening now uses Esperanto's '-as' suffix[*]. The mapping of English to Esperanto tenses will be the subject of a later (probably my next) article. The upshot here (and you'll hear this warning time and time again) is that you should think very carefully about what you *mean* to say, and then find the right Esperantish way of saying it, rather than relying on the literal substitution of words. Now, about Esperanto's own idioms. Consider the following three common Esperanto phrases: 'Dankon.' 'Bonvenon.' 'G^is!' None of these, of course, is a complete sentence. This, all by itself, marks the usage as idiomatic. 'Dankon' by itself is short for 'Mi donas dankon al vi'; similarly, 'Bonvenon' is short for 'Mi donas bonvenon al vi'. Every Western language, pretty much, has this same short-hand idiom for '(I give you) thanks' and '(I give you) welcome'. 'G^is!' or 'G^is la' is short for 'G^is la revido' which itself is an idiomatic phrase. Literally it means, 'Until the sight again' ('vidi' to see; 'vido' sight, vision; 're' again), which makes no sense in either language if left literal[**]. This is the canonical way to say 'good-bye' in Esperanto. Which seems like a good place to draw the article to a close. I hope this helped. Please let me know if you have suggestions for how this discussion can be clarified and/or expanded further. Miko [*] Similarly, anything that can be said to no longer be happening gets '-is', and anything that is not happening now but is expected to happen in the future gets '-os'. Again, more next time. [**] 'Hasta la vista', from Spanish, has almost the same literal translation: 'until the sight'. From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Wed Nov 20 03:47:20 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:47:20 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] La anonco por CQ. Pensoj? Message-ID: Gesinjoroj: 2242EST 2002.11.19 Jen la anonco por CQ. Pensoj? Redakoj? Nova kaj Unika =C5=9Cipo Formi=C4=9Das en Stelafloto! =C4=88u vi komprenas =C4=89i-tio? =C4=88u vi interesi=C4=9Das pri = lingvoj? =C4=88u vi parolas=20 Esperanto a=C5=AD =C4=89u vi volas lerni alia lingvon? Vidu la plej = interesa=20 eksperimento in Stelafoloto: la Pramo Espero! Vizitu nia TTT-ejo =C4=89e=20= a=C5=AD retskribas = Flotkapitano=20 Dok=C4=89jo Kinne =C4=89e . New and Unique Ship Forming in Starfleet! Do you understand this? Do you have an interest in languages? Do you=20 speak Esperanto or do you want to learn another language? See the most=20= interesting experiment in Starfleet: the Shuttle Espero! Visit our web=20= site at or email Fleet=20 Captain Doc Kinne at . --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABPramo Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Wed Nov 20 05:25:48 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:25:48 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] La anonco por CQ. Pensoj? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DDB1CDC.2070207@hundred-acre-wood.com> O s^ipestro mia s^ipestro (Sorry, couldn't resist) > Jen la anonco por CQ. Pensoj? Redakoj? Ion redakojn: > Nova kaj Unika Ŝipo Formiĝas en Stelafloto! > Ĉu vi komprenas ĉi-tio? Ĉu vi interesiĝas pri lingvoj? C^u vin interesas lingvoj? (Do languages interest you?) > Ĉu vi parolas > Esperanto aŭ ĉu vi volas lerni alia lingvon? Vidu la plej interesa > eksperimento interesan eksperimenton > in Stelafoloto: en, ne in > la Pramo Espero! Vizitu nia TTT-ejo ĉe > nian TTT-ejon [Kiu faros la TTT-ejon, nun? Mi, kiel Ing^inierestro, au^ vi, c^ar estas via ideo? Se mi, tiam mi s^atus havi g^in c^e Itaskao...] Nu, ni vidos kiu salutos... From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Wed Nov 20 12:58:54 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:58:54 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] La anonco por CQ. Pensoj? In-Reply-To: <3DDB1CDC.2070207@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: Miko: 0752EST 2002.11.20 On Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002, at 00:25 America/New_York, Michael Scott=20 Shappe wrote: > O s^ipestro mia s^ipestro > > (Sorry, couldn't resist) AAAAUUUUUGGGHHHHHHH! Malbona! =C4=B4us malbona! :-) (AAUUGGGHHH!!!! Kiel vi skribas tion en Esperanto? 8-) ) Pli poste. Mi devas iri al ofico. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D AAAUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHH! Bad! Just bad! :-) (AAAUUUGGHHH!!!!! How do you write that in Esperanto? 8-) ) More later. I have to go to work. --- Flotkapitano Rikardo KINNE Estro de la anta=C5=AD-pramo Espero Sciencestro Oficistro, USS Akordo NCC-1842 . Membro de la 771aj Marsoldatoj TTT: Faksilo: 413-460-6304 =C2=ABPramo Espero: Paco Tra Supera Kompreno=C2=BB= From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 21 20:50:17 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:50:17 -0800 Subject: [USS^-Espero] <> vs =?UTF-8?B?PDzFnGFsdXBvPj4=?= Message-ID: <3DDD4709.8090801@hundred-acre-wood.com> Ĝis nun, ni uzas <> anstataŭ la angla <>. Laŭvorte, estas ĝusta -- <> intencas <>, sed kiel intencas <>, kiam vi pripensas ĝin. Sed, al mi, <> sonas tro multa kiel la angla <>, kiu intencas <>. Mi ne ŝatas ĝin, kaj mi kredis ke mi malkovrus pli bona vorto se mi trovus. Mi malkovris <<ŝalupo>>, kiu intencas <>. Mi multe pli bone ŝatis ĝin, kaj kredas ke <<Ŝalupo Espero>> sonas pli bone. Preferoj? ======== Until now, we've used "pramo" instead of the English "shuttle". Literally, this is correct -- "pramo" means "ferry", but so does "shuttle", when you think about it. But, to me, "pramo" sounds too much like the English "pram", which means "baby-carriage". I don't like it, and I believed that I could discover a better word if I looked. I found "ŝalupo" (pronoucned: /sha-LOO-poh/), which means "ship's boat". I like this much better, and think that "Ŝalupo Espero" sounds better. Preferences? From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Thu Nov 21 22:03:23 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:03:23 -0800 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Fun with wordbuilding... Message-ID: <3DDD582B.7070805@hundred-acre-wood.com> Or, 'Why Esperanto rocks' ŝipo -- ship ŝipestro -- Captain (that is, CO of a ship) ŝipano -- member of a ship's crew ŝiparo -- A fleet (but also 'floto') ŝiparestro -- Fleet commander ŝipanaro -- the crew as a whole vicŝipestro -- XO of a ship stelŝipo -- starship (also 'steloŝipo'; either works) stelŝipejo -- ship yard stelŝipujo -- Spacedock (lit: a container for starships) stelŝipeto -- A frigate, perhaps (lit: smaller starship) stelŝipego -- A dreadnaŭght (lit: larger starship) ŝalupo -- ship's boat; shuttlecraft ŝalupestro -- skipper (that is, CO of a small craft) vicŝipestro -- XO of a shuttle ŝalupujo -- shuttle bay ŝalupujestro -- flight officer; the guy in charge of the shuttle bay ŝalupeto -- shuttlepod ŝalupego -- runabout bazo -- base stelbazo -- starbase stelbazestro -- CO of a starbase ĉefsipo -- flagship scienco -- science sciencist -- scientist sciencistestro -- science officer (boss of scientists) kuraci -- to cure kuraco -- a cure kuracisto -- doctor (of medicine) kuracistestro -- medical officer (boss of doctors) inginiero -- engineer inginierestro -- engineering officer (boss of engineers) direkti -- to steer direktilo -- helm, steeriing wheel direktilisto -- helmsman navigi -- to navigate navigisto -- navigator komuniki -- to communicate komunikisto -- communications operator (not necessarily an officer) komunikilo -- communicator transporti -- to transport transportilo -- transporter armi -- to arm armilo -- weapon armisto -- gunner /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 22 04:57:53 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Richard Kinne) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:57:53 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] CQ Ad Submission Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-5--495668531 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6--495668530 --Apple-Mail-6--495668530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Dear CQ: Please accept the following special ad for submission into the next CQ.=20= It should just meet the maximum requirements for word length and the=20 submission is ONE SINGLE AD, not two. I have also appended the ad to this email message in PDF format. It is=20= important that the "special letters" you see make it into the ad if at=20= all possible to avoid misspelling. Please email me if you have any questions. I very much appreciate your=20= help! My SCC number is 23293-7 and my expiration date is 1-4-2003. I can be=20= reached during the day at 607-257-3775. Thanks again! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Nova kaj Unika =C5=9Cipo Formi=C4=9Das en Stelafloto! =C4=88u vi komprenas =C4=89i-tio? =C4=88u vin interesas lingvoj? =C4=88u = vi parolas=20 Esperanto a=C5=AD =C4=89u vi volas lerni alia lingvon? Vidu la plej = interesan=20 eksperimenton en Stelafoloto: la =C5=9Calupo Espero! Vizitu nia TTT-ejon = =C4=89e=20 a=C5=AD retskribas = Flotkapitano=20 Dok=C4=89jo Kinne =C4=89e . New and Unique Ship Forming in Starfleet! Do you understand this? Do you have an interest in languages? Do you=20 speak Esperanto or do you want to learn another language? See the most=20= interesting experiment in Starfleet: the Shuttle Espero! Visit our web=20= site at or email Fleet=20 Captain Doc Kinne at . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- Fleet Captain Richard C.S. "Doc" Kinne Leader of the Pre-shuttle Espero Chief Science Officer, USS Accord NCC-1842 Attached to 771st Marine Strike Group "The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight." -President Jed Bartlet "20 Hours in America" The West Wing --Apple-Mail-6--495668530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=UTF-8 Dear CQ: Please accept the following special ad for submission into the next CQ. It should just meet the maximum requirements for word length and the submission is ONE SINGLE AD, not two. I have also appended the ad to this email message in PDF format. It is important that the "special letters" you see make it into the ad if at all possible to avoid misspelling. Please email me if you have any questions. I very much appreciate your help! My SCC number is0000,0000,0000 Arial23293-7 and my expiration date is 1-4-2003. I can be reached during the day at 607-257-3775. Thanks again! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Nova kaj Unika =C5=9Cipo Formi=C4=9Das = en Stelafloto!Palatino =C4=88u vi komprenas =C4=89i-tio? =C4=88u vin interesas = lingvoj? =C4=88u vi parolas Esperanto a=C5=AD =C4=89u vi volas lerni alia lingvon? Vidu la = plej interesan eksperimenton en Stelafoloto: la =C5=9Calupo Espero! Vizitu = nia TTT-ejon =C4=89e < a=C5=AD = retskribas Flotkapitano Dok=C4=89jo Kinne =C4=89e <. New and Unique Ship Forming in Starfleet! PalatinoDo you understand this? Do you have an interest in languages? Do you speak Esperanto or do you want to learn another language? See the most interesting experiment in Starfleet: the Shuttle Espero! Visit our web site at < or email Fleet Captain Doc Kinne at <. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --- Fleet Captain Richard C.S. 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MDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNDA5NjEgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA0MjE4NyAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDQyMjIz IDAwMDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNDI1NTQgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA0MjYwNCAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDQy NzY3IDAwMDAwIG4gCnRyYWlsZXIKPDwgL1NpemUgMjkgL1Jvb3QgMjYgMCBSIC9JbmZvIDI3IDAg UiAvSUQgMjggMCBSID4+CnN0YXJ0eHJlZgo0Mjg1NwolJUVPRgo= --Apple-Mail-5--495668531-- From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Fri Nov 22 18:58:12 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:58:12 -0800 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Interesting site Message-ID: <3DDE7E44.2000607@hundred-acre-wood.com> Slightly more approachable than some I've seen. One thing I found particularly interesting was a complete translation of the Declaration of Independence -- something I was thinking of doing as an exercise for a later 'Perils of Translation' article :-) /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sun Nov 24 23:00:13 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:00:13 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] More fun with worldbuilding Message-ID: <3DE159FD.60906@hundred-acre-wood.com> This started when I went looking for the roots that map to the two distinct meanings of the English word 'free'. Note that the Free Software Foundation (of GNU fame) would be <> or <>, but not <>. Also, note that I'm actually guessing at some of these derivations, altho' I've been able to confirm many of them. Feel free to offer corrections or ask how I arrived at a meaning. libera -- free (as in speech), at liberty libere -- freely (without restriction) libereco -- liberty, freedom liberigi -- to liberate libervola -- voluntary libervolo -- volunteer libervole -- voluntarily libervoli -- to volunteer mallibera -- bound, captured, enslaved (?) malliberigi -- to imprison or jail maliberejo -- jail malliberulo -- prisoner senpaga -- free (as in lunch) pagi -- to pay pago -- payment pagulo -- payer pagigi -- to charge pagigo -- a charge pagigulo -- payee pagig^i -- get paid ekpago -- down payment elpago -- final payment elpagi -- to pay off, redeem (also 'finpagi') spezi -- to transact money (regardless of direction) spezado -- cash flow (lit. 'transacting' as a gerund) elspezi -- to spend elspezo -- expense elspezulo -- spender (but also elspendanto) liberelspezulo -- free spender grande elspezo -- big spender (not granda, mind you, which implies that the spender is big, but grande, which means that the spending was big) enspezi -- to take in money enspezo -- income imposto -- tax imposti -- to tax impostpagi -- to pay one's taxes impostpaganto -- taxpayer impostdeklaro -- tax return impostdepreno -- tax deduction imposteble -- taxable impostisto -- tax collector impostdeklaristo -- tax return preparer impostkonsilisto -- tax consultant impostplialtigo -- tax hike (impost + pli (more) + alt (higher) + ig (to cause, to make)) impostpremo -- tax burden senimposta -- duty-free enspezimposto -- income tax From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Wed Nov 27 19:35:11 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:35:11 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Danktago kaj Lumfesto Message-ID: <3DE51E6F.8080605@hundred-acre-wood.com> Do, ignore la fakton ke multaj de ni ne estas ne precipe antau^g^ojas c^i tion ferion, c^ar diversaj kialoj, kio vi planas fari je Danktago kaj/au^ Lumfesto? Mi mem, kaj Pixel, ignoros Danktago, grandparte. Decidis ni ke ne bezonas vidi s^ian familion, c^ar ni vidis c^iun antau^ sole du semajnoj. Mi ne volas iri ien, c^ar mi vojag^is je ses semajnoj en vico, kiu enavis du semanoj aparta en C^ikago, kaj mi iros Milwau^kion je sekva semano. Ankau^, dum neniu de ni tiom s^atas meleagron, Danktago estos sole alia tago sen vorko. Mi vorkos hejme je parta la semajnfino. Mi malstrec^ig^os la cetera. ======== So, ignoring the fact that many of us are not especially looking forward to this holiday, for various reasons, what do y'all plan to do for Thanksgiving and/or Chanukah? Myself, and Pixel, will be ignoring Thanksgiving, for the most part, We decided that we don't need to see her family, since we saw them only two weeks ago. I don't want to go anywhere, because I traveled for six weeks in a row, including two separate weeks in Chicago, and I'm going to Milwaukee next week. Also, since neither of us much like turkey, Thanksgiving will be just another day off. I'm working from home part of the weekend; and relaxing for the rest. /m From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 30 05:21:24 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Rahadyan Sastrowardoyo) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:21:24 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Star Trek: The Magazine In-Reply-To: <3DE51E6F.8080605@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021130002030.02aa2700@pop3.norton.antivirus> Additional info on the Constellation class (including its developmental history) is in the latest issue of Star Trek: The Magazine (Michael Dorn cover). Just FYI. Tim From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 30 08:12:17 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:12:17 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Kaj nun... Message-ID: <3DE872E1.5030909@hundred-acre-wood.com> ...malgrande malgraveco. Vidu se vi povas diveni la tradukata angla kanto (kun ne rispekto de metro...) Estas malvarma ekster, Estas nia atmosfero, Mi estas sole, pli malpli, Lasu mi forflugi malproksime de c^i tie, Amuzon, amuzon, amuzon, Je la suno, suno, suno Mi volas kus^i, s^ippereig^ita kaj senkonscia, Trinkanta fres^an mangsukon, Orfis^skoloj mordetantaj en mia piedfingroj, Amuzon, amuzon, amuzon, Je la suno, suno, suno, Amuzon amuzon amuzon, Je la suno, suno, suno. Miko From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 30 15:27:01 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Michael Scott Shappe) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:27:01 -0600 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Kaj nun... In-Reply-To: <3DE872E1.5030909@hundred-acre-wood.com> References: <3DE872E1.5030909@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <3DE8D8C5.4090006@hundred-acre-wood.com> One correction: > Estas nia atmosfero, Estas nenia atmosfero Which also provides your first hint: nenia means 'no kind (of)' From uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net Sat Nov 30 23:36:40 2002 From: uss-espero@mailman.itasca.net (Buddha Buck) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:36:40 -0500 Subject: [USS^-Espero] Kaj nun... References: <3DE872E1.5030909@hundred-acre-wood.com> Message-ID: <3DE94B88.7010303@14850.com> Michael Scott Shappe wrote: > ...malgrande malgraveco. Vidu se vi povas diveni la tradukata angla > kanto (kun ne rispekto de metro...) You are sick... > > Estas malvarma ekster, It is cold out there. > Estas nia atmosfero, There is no kind of air. > Mi estas sole, pli malpli, I am alone, more or less. > Lasu mi forflugi malproksime de c^i tie, Allow me to fly, not near here. > Amuzon, amuzon, amuzon, Amusing, amusing, amusing, > Je la suno, suno, suno in the sun, sun, sun, > > Mi volas kus^i, s^ippereig^ita kaj senkonscia, I want to recline, stranded and unconciouse > Trinkanta fres^an mangsukon, drinking fresh juice of mangos > Orfis^skoloj mordetantaj en mia piedfingroj, goldfish shoals, taking smal bites of my foot-fingers. > Amuzon, amuzon, amuzon, Amusing, amusing, amusing, > Je la suno, suno, suno, in the sun, sun, sun. > > Amuzon amuzon amuzon, > Je la suno, suno, suno. Somehow, this reminds me of Rick when he's blushing..... :-) > > Miko > > > _______________________________________________ > USS-Espero mailing list > USS-Espero@mailman.itasca.net > http://mailman.itasca.net/listinfo/uss-espero